Transcript:

Seth:
Tseli Khiba returns. There's no way I pronounced your name correctly on the first iteration, but I think I've got it right now. She gives us her thoughts on global cannabis regulations and standardization, and hopefully she'll be back on a more regular basis now. First a word from our supporter and then Tseli Khiba.

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Okay, we've got Tseli Khiba, Letters from Lesotho. This is our maiden voyage. Tseli, thank you so much for your time.

Tseli:
Thank you. Thank you, Seth. Thank you for inviting me over. Thank you.

Seth:
Last time we were together was the first time we were together. That was in South Africa. You're back in your homeland now of Lesotho, yes?

Tseli:
Yes I am. Yes, the first time we met was at the first CannaTech conference to be held in Africa actually, so that was held in Cape Town November last year. But right now I'm back home in Maseru, Lesotho, the capital city.

Seth:
Yet in between that meeting and this meeting, you went to another meeting. You went to the INCB, the CMD or CMV or ... You tell me. How about that?

Tseli:
Actually, I've had two significant conferences since then. In December last year I attended the second African good governance seminar organized by the African Peer Review Mechanism, which is a body that falls under the African Union, the AU. And more recently I attended the 63rd session of the CND, which is the commission on narcotic drugs in Vienna. So this was last week and I just got back.

Seth:
There we go. All right. So the CND meeting is the one we want to hone in on, but we will get into that AU meeting in another one of these sessions

Tseli:
Absolutely.

Seth:
Yeah. So the International Narcotics Control Board, INCB, has this meeting on the Commission for Narcotics drugs. And you were in the room for that. What I found striking when we kind of caught up before this was how different it was to the cannabis meetings that you've been a part of leading up to it.

Tseli:
True, true. It was quite a bit of a shift. So the Commission on Narcotic Drugs is the body of the United Nations that deals with policies and laws and the regulatory framework related to drugs in general. So this is the 63rd session. And the reason why I attended this particular session is it was rumored to be the session where cannabis could potentially be descheduled, which would obviously have a very significant impact on the industry which we work in. And as it's been reported in the media since, that was not the outcome. The commission elected to postpone voting on this particular issue, which would give member states more time to consider some of the evidence that has been tabled by the World Health Organization and perhaps give more time for more discussions and more questions.

And I think it was quite striking in the sense that it's a very different environment compared to maybe some of the cannabis conferences and spaces I've been in, and also particularly in relation to what I've experienced from working within Southern Africa and the trends and the reforms happening within this cannabis space. And I believe that what I have felt from where I had been based is that there's been a lot of positive movement towards recognizing the medicinal benefits of the plant and trying to incorporate it in such a way that countries can pursue this industry as well as commercialize it as well. And cast maybe in that light, the circles I've been in have been quite liberal in some ways.

And so being perhaps in a United Nations environment, which is a bit more conservative and very procedurally bound, it did take some adjustment to really appreciate the broader considerations that were on the table that countries had to consider legitimately. Apart from the evidence that's been tabled regarding medicinal cannabis, there are other very real concerns ranging from the risks of diversion, the impact on women and children, and other concerns related to how the cannabis industry may be linked to other more dangerous or illicit drugs, synthetic drugs and so on. So it did also give me an opportunity to maybe appreciate the broader implications of the industry as well and why is that world [inaudible 00:05:52] are approaching it in such a cautious manner.

Seth:
That is something that I've experienced as well, that policy and industry move at completely different paces. And industry does feel convinced, and so then industry thinks, "Well, policy will certainly be convinced because we've overcome all of the arguments of yesterday." Whereas, policy is still coming from yesterday's point of view. And so when you speak of diversion, okay wait a second, regulated, taxable cannabis makes sure that diversion, you can see it better. However, if I'm a policy maker or a policy enforcer, I can't have new diversion issues. The two paces you found yourself ... You basically, you got out of your convertible sports car and then you went into, what, a very nice bicycle. I'm not trying to make it ... but it just does move more slowly, yes? More deliberately.

Tseli:
I would describe it as a Volvo, maybe more safer.

Seth:
There we go. Safe. Yeah. That's it. So now you and your role, we went over that, and folks can listen to our first interview to hear a little bit more about your background so that we don't have to do that here. But understanding your background, understanding our place in the industry, and you do kind of sit on the edge there, what are you planning to do as far as communication, as far as action to kind of bridge the gap between industry and policy?

Tseli:
Well, I'm a lawyer. I'm practicing in Lesotho. And since the last time we spoke, I have taken more of an interest in looking into ways in which I can advance the cause of developing local, domestic African markets for cannabis, medicinal cannabis products. So that's maybe a shift from the last time when we spoke, when we were just talking maybe about the industry. So that is something very specific. And coming from the session that we had in Vienna, I do feel that I would want to get more involved in perhaps more dialogues relating to opportunities and different ways in which maybe when we look at [inaudible 00:08:28] region specifically the Southern African countries because I think I have more of a closer relationship and understanding of the legal systems here, to look at ways and different options which countries can pursue in trying to advance and reform the cannabis legislations, and also just to have more dialogues between government states as well as civil society, as well as members of the private sector as well.

Because do believe we have different ... and scientific and medicinal researchers as well and the agricultural body as well, because that also opens up more dialogue relating to hemp as well, which is another potential industry that could be of great value to our continent. So I think it's really trying to facilitate and engage more with the different sectors and different decision makers who would therefore be more informed to better influence decisions perhaps at the UN level.

Seth:
Yeah, I mean science keeps doing their job. They keep putting forth the research when they don't have hurdles in front of them. And it sounds like, yeah, your dialogue is going to be welcome to kind of almost help industry in how they can communicate the good work that they're doing in a way that policy can hear them on the local level. And then once policy hears them on the local level, we filtered that up to the UN so we don't necessarily get through another session of postponement. As much as we hope that it won't happen, we got to make sure that we've got the tools to ensure that it won't happen. Right?

Tseli:
Absolutely. I think we just need to be more prepared and also able to answer some of the hard questions that will come up related to how your policing unit is going to manage this industry. How are you going to measure your quotas? So definitely I think us on the ground need to do the groundwork to ensure that it filters to the international level.

Seth:
Yeah. The multitude, the masses, the people that decide on these things. Right?

Tseli:
Absolutely.

Seth:
All right, fantastic. Tseli, it's just that easy. This is Letters from Lesotho. Thank you so much for your time. I can't wait for the next one already. And until then we'll bid you farewell.

Tseli:
Thank you. Thank you, Seth. I'm glad and I'm happy to keep you updated on the developments [inaudible 00:11:01].

Seth:
And there you have Tseli Khiba, very much appreciate her time. Very much appreciate your time. Stay tuned.

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